Abortion

[Moussette]

The answer will vary person to person, but I guess the real question then becomes: can I afford to even help this diseased child? Obviously this woman lost everything just trying to keep her son alive day after day and is living in a motel. I still don't like what she told me, though. Should never joke around about 'throwing away' your children who have disorders. If it's something that's terminal or as bad as this child where it will absolutely not survive without constant attention, that's something that needs to be spoken about to medical professionals only.

I would also ask that question : Is it really the right thing to do to keep a baby that will never have a "normal" life ? That will never walk/talk/have friends/go to school/get married ... ?

Let's keep in mind that the children never asked to be born. That's the choice of two people (most of the time) and it's a complete selfish choice.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

I think Moussette, that that is the incorrect question you should be asking: Is it right to abort the baby because it'll never be able to do those things?

No would be my answer. It doesn't matter really how much a person is suffering to me, we should never judge about his death. It's murder!

Let's keep in mind that the children never asked to be born. That's the choice of two people (most of the time) and it's a complete selfish choice.

I completely disagree! It's not selfish to keep a baby! Just the very opposite is!

People abort their children or/and use protection mostly because they don't want to have the responsibility of a parent. They still wanna be able to "enjoy life".

It makes me really sad you think that way.

 

[Moussette]

Aww don't be sad

(I just realized I called you StefEn from the beginning. Very sorry about that ^^' )

 

[Midorime]

I think it was more that she was joking about 'throwing away' her already born child. It is a sick thought to be joking about her own son, even if it is her own way of coping.

Yes she was joking, at least I think so. However she had yelled at her daughter and said some very mean things, so I'm not so sure.

I don't quite understand you now. You say you don't like what she said, but you yourself would have aborted it...

Isn't that kinda hypocritical?

I didn't like her 'joking' about her situation and what to do to her son and how she casually asked for me to 'throw him away,' that's the part that angered me. And my decision to abort a damaged fetus is my own personal choice, not saying she should have, plus he's already been born so she's stuck with him. I just know that I couldn't, nor would even try, to carry a damaged/nonfunctional fetus to term, it seems ludicris and just wrong to bring a life into the world only for it to suffer from the moment it's born to the moment it dies. That's sickening, and also the reason why I think human euthanasia should be allowed as well.

Anyway, two separate thoughts, though; sorry, I should have clarified it if it was confusing.

 

[Sushi Bassist]

Hm, I can't say that I have both feet planted firmly on either side.

I see a lot of people saying that if a woman was raped, and was pregnant as a result of that incident, she'd have the right to terminate her pregnancy... I disagree with that because no matter the situation, the child is innocent. It didn't choose to be an outcome of rape, it simply came into existence. Exterminating the child because of the faults of the father would be to do a great injustice.
I can understand when people say that abortion is like murder. However, if we're really going to get into this, what is murder? Is murder defined by the termination of life, or is it only murder when it is done to a sensuous organism (i.e. plant or animal)? Because depending on how you look at the situation, abortion is both murder and not murder. Before six weeks, the cluster of cells has yet to develop a functioning nervous system and has no consciousness let alone senses. It can only be considered "living" (in the sense that we are now) after six weeks, so going by that argument (and a certain definition of murder) terminating a pregnancy that is shorter than six weeks is not murder, some may view it simply as the expulsion of a group of cells. It'd be like saying cutting hair or losing skin cells was murder, since those cells are alive and dividing but not sensuous. And to add to that.... There are stem cells in the skin as well (and skin has fully developed nerves) so there isn't much of a difference between a six week or younger "fetus" and our skin.
BUTTTTTTTTT this does not mean that I'm advocating either pro-life or pro-choice, I'm simply adding to the discussion. I just thought it'd be interesting to bring it up.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Just so you know, the baby's hearts starts already beating at week 5.

 

[Sushi Bassist]

Just so you know, the baby's hearts starts already beating at week 5.

But a heartbeat does not imply consciousness, nor defines it. Going by the most popular definition of murder, exterminating something that has a heartbeat but no self-awareness (or senses) would not be considered as such.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Maybe you're right. I actually don't really care if the baby feels anything or not.

I'm sure it's possible to kill people without them feeling anything of it. That doesn't make it okay.

The immoral thing about it is that you're stopping something which is going to (normally) become "human"(to me its human already).

 

[Amat Gotchi]

The situation in El Salvador makes me even more convinced that abortion should remain legal here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24532694

El Salvador has one of the toughest anti-abortion laws in the world. A side-effect is that women who suffer miscarriages are sometimes suspected of inducing an abortion - and can even be jailed for murder.

 

[Claiken]

I only agree with it in certain extreme situations. Like, for example, my SIL has a rare blood disorder. If she happened to concieve with someone else who also has this disorder, that baby will 100% die of natural causes either still inside or moments out of the womb, because it will be unable to create and circulate its own blood. even with a transfusion, their body just literally would not know how to continue to create and use its own blood. it will die no matter what is tried. We just talked about this the other day, and this is what her blood specialist told her. i may not remember all the technical terms correctly but i know that he knew what he was talking about.

in an instance like that, I could see making the choice to end it. after tests are done and everything, after theyre 100% sure that the baby does have the disease (i forget what its called) without any shadow of doubt.

certain things like that I do see.

instances of young teens who 'messed up' and want to 'take care of it the easy way'... no thats not cool at all. if htey cant keep it, there are plenty of couples looking desperately to adopt because they cant conceive.

so i guess you could say im pro life except in an instance like i described where the outcome wouldnt be a life anyway. like i said, only extremest of circumstances, and without any shadow of doubt.

 

[Kuribotchi]

I can see and understand where people who are in the middle are coming from, and I agree with their views. However, we don't live in a world where we can have abortions legal under only certain circumstances. There will always be members of society who will find a way to make their way happen (this statement can be seen from both sides.)

As Tamamum stated a few pages back "If you believe that a woman has the right to have an abortion if she wants one (under certain specific circumstances) that means you are "pro-choice". "

also I think I was misunderstood by people before by saying "it's only confusing if you make it confusing, it's basically yes to abortion or no to abortion, there is no fine print." Because what I literally meant was that it is either legal or illegal.

When I started the topic, I should of put "Pro-Choice means you think abortion should be legalized, and Pro-Life means you think it should be made illegal" instead of "Pro-Choice means you have no problem with abortion, and Pro-Life means you are against it.".

 

[Amat Gotchi]

I understand that a lot of teen girls end up getting abortions because having a baby could jeopardize their future.

This can happen, but it doesn't always.

A friend of mine got pregnant at 14 and had her baby at 15. But instead of becoming a dropout teen mom like so many (including her own parents), she took things into her own hands and started going to an alternative high school. She graduated early and has just now started college, at the age of 16. (In the US, people usually start college at age 18.) Learning about this made me extremely proud of her, and I think she is one of the more mature teen mothers who will make her daughter proud.

No, I don't think that teen girls should be getting pregnant, of course I don't. But if they do get pregnant, they should know that they have a choice that is theirs, and only theirs, to make. And I couldn't make a call on what choice is better unless I was in the situation myself.

Still pro-choice.

 

[Jhud]

My mom has a good argument about abortions (and she rarely has good arguments on anything ). Well, I don't know about other countries, but abortions used to be easily accessed back in the day. And back in the day you rarely heard about infant abuse. Now one out of three news is about infant abuse these days. I don't think that it's concidental...

 

[TamaMum]

My mom has a good argument about abortions (and she rarely has good arguments on anything ). Well, I don't know about other countries, but abortions used to be easily accessed back in the day. And back in the day you rarely heard about infant abuse. Now one out of three news is about infant abuse these days. I don't think that it's concidental...

I don't think that's a very strong pro-choice / pro-abortion argument really. When you first read it you think it sounds like it could be linked but I do think that might be coincidental.

The reasoning sounds like a suggestion that there is more infant abuse these days in Poland because women don't get abortions like they used to and so had unwanted babies and so they are more likely to become child abusers?

I think it's a really long stretch of the imagination to believe that a woman who is not able to get an abortion - whatever the circumstances - is more likely to abuse the infant.

Abortion is still legal and accessible in the majority of countries around the world - Europe / North America / Australasia and we still see and hear plenty of news about infant / child abuse in these countries.


Maybe we hear more about infant / child abuse these days because

• communication and technology has developed so fast that we all have access to much more information and it's immediate, in our faces and more sensationalised.
• our attitudes to abuse have changed and so abusers - Politicians, Celebrities, the Catholic Church - all good examples - are now more likely to be publicly held to account (they cannot so easily get away with "hushing things up")
• attitudes to unmarried mothers / pregnancy outside of marriage have changed.
  The shame and social stigma experienced over unwanted pregnancy has lessened over time.
• It is becoming more common for couples not to marry, but still to set up home together and have children together.
• It is also becoming more common for unmarried women not to be ashamed or fearful if they become pregnant

 

[Amat Gotchi]

Lately, I've been hearing a lot of people arguing against abortion, saying it's "genocide" because more African-American women have abortions than white women.
Maybe someone could enlighten me on this more, but this argument sounds like pretty poor reasoning.

After all, it's not like an abortion prevents a woman from ever having children. It seems more likely that the reason African-Americans get more abortions is that they have (on average) less access to birth control, and less money to afford children. Delaying children seems like an okay plan to me; it's not exterminating a race but rather waiting until women are ready--both mentally and financially--to take good care of their children. Doesn't that seem like a better outcome than they'd otherwise have?

 

[Eternal Mametchi Fan]

*peeps out from behind the curtains*

Pro-life. There's a reason it's called pro "life".

I don't believe it's right in the case of rape.

I don't believe it's right in the case of the baby having a huge chance of dying. (Is there really such a thing as 100% certain?)

The point is that it's developing into a human like us. It's natural. Not exactly a human yet, but it's THERE, it WILL become one.

You have a seed in the ground. It's starting to "develop", as in bud, it will grow and become a flower one day.

Does it still count as a flower? Maybe not, just like the fetus/embryo isn't considered a person by most.

You don't want a flower. You're allergic to flowers, or maybe they're too much trouble to maintain. What will you do? Will you remove it from the ground and destroy it, ending its "life"?

Or would you wait for it to become a young plant and then let it go to someone who DOES want it? (adoption)

Uh, that was a bad comparison ouo'

But anyway, in the case of rape (and only a very small percentage of abortions are because of rape) or if you simply had intercourse and don't want a baby:

The developing embryo/fetus should not be killed just because of the mistakes of you or someone else.

You'd have to go through pregnancy. A 9 whole months of one's life. But is it really that long compared to a whole lifetime? You probably don't remember much about being 9 months old. And anyway, maybe it's worth it.

Maybe you'll change your mind. Just holding the baby and knowing you looked after it inside of you for so long. And even if you do not wish to raise the child, you may let another family adopt it. Giving them a great gift of happiness. Yes, I think it's worth it... protecting a life and bringing great joy to yourself (if you change your mind) or others.

Just think of all the babies that have been aborted. What would they have been like when they grew up? Maybe one of them was destined to do something amazing like find a cure for cancer, save someone's life... abortion's just such a waste. It makes me sad. Even if a baby is "braindead", does that really mean its life has no value? You cannot know what's going on in the mind of a person. I do not believe in killing dysfunctional people. It's still life. The person does not deserve to be killed just because it's too much of a hassle to look after and can't play video games or whatever.

What's wrong with adoption? It's not that easy for everyone else to get pregnant you know....

Heck, I don't even like babies/young kids. I "can't stand them" but I don't really "hate" them. Adults and such can be very dislikeable as well.

I really don't want kids. But is it my choice? Maybe everything happens for a reason, although we may never know the reason. If I were to get pregnant one day I'd not abort. The fetus/embryo is already there, and when life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

If I were married but one day got raped by someone (that wasn't my spouse) would I abort? Nope nope nope nope nope! It'd still be my baby, it shouldn't be killed just because of some perverted, sexually immoral freak, and my husband would have to accept (but if he really didn't, I'd look after the child until it was able to be adopted). Maybe the baby would be a great sibling if me and my husband got a baby of our own (not saying that the other child wouldn't be ours).

And I guess that's all I have to say for now. Yeah, I'm 15 so maybe I"m too young to have a sensible opinion on such matters but I don't give a fig ~(O.O~)

Someone will probably quote my post and be like "No you're wrong xoxoxox pls change your opinion". That's the problem with being in the minority. Pro-lifers are much rarer than pro-choicers. A pro-choicer may hate a pro-lifer and say horrible things to them, but as a pro-lifer I just sit back and let people think what they want even though I disagree.

Same with homosexuality. If a gay-supporter sees a non-gay supporter, they're like "OH MAI GAWD YOU'RE SUCH A HATEFUL HOMOPHOBE HAVE FUN BEING A (insert many inappropriate words here) FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE". If a non-gay supporter sees a gay-supporter, they just accept it and maybe point out they disagree but don't get into a whiny fit. Not saying everyone is like that, just generalizing what it's USUALLY like.

So I guess there's no such thing as opinion but oh well! This post is too long already and I'm meant to be doing an essay.

*abruptly leaves the room*

 

[nerdbot]

But anyway, in the case of rape (and only a very small percentage of abortions are because of rape) or if you simply had intercourse and don't want a baby:

The developing embryo/fetus should not be killed just because of the mistakes of you or someone else.

You'd have to go through pregnancy. A 9 whole months of one's life. But is it really that long compared to a whole lifetime? You probably don't remember much about being 9 months old. And anyway, maybe it's worth it.

Maybe you'll change your mind. Just holding the baby and knowing you looked after it inside of you for so long. And even if you do not wish to raise the child, you may let another family adopt it. Giving them a great gift of happiness. Yes, I think it's worth it... protecting a life and bringing great joy to yourself (if you change your mind) or others.

Just think of all the babies that have been aborted. What would they have been like when they grew up? Maybe one of them was destined to do something amazing like find a cure for cancer, save someone's life... abortion's just such a waste. It makes me sad. Even if a baby is "braindead", does that really mean its life has no value? You cannot know what's going on in the mind of a person. I do not believe in killing dysfunctional people. It's still life. The person does not deserve to be killed just because it's too much of a hassle to look after and can't play video games or whatever.

What's wrong with adoption? It's not that easy for everyone else to get pregnant you know....

Heck, I don't even like babies/young kids. I "can't stand them" but I don't really "hate" them. Adults and such can be very dislikeable as well.

I really don't want kids. But is it my choice? Maybe everything happens for a reason, although we may never know the reason. If I were to get pregnant one day I'd not abort. The fetus/embryo is already there, and when life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

If I were married but one day got raped by someone (that wasn't my spouse) would I abort? Nope nope nope nope nope! It'd still be my baby, it shouldn't be killed just because of some perverted, sexually immoral freak, and my husband would have to accept (but if he really didn't, I'd look after the child until it was able to be adopted). Maybe the baby would be a great sibling if me and my husband got a baby of our own (not saying that the other child wouldn't be ours).

I do respect your opinion but I don't think you understand how serious rape is. It's not just an act that "just happens" - it is a battle that unfortunately that can go on for years. Survivors (people who have unfortunately been raped) often undergo lots of post-traumatic stress. They may experience a crippling anxiety, develop disturbed sleeping patterns, or even an overwhelming feeling of guilt. In most cases, people aren't raped by random strangers they meet on the street. As it turns out, it usually is someone that they know and once trusted.

If you read earlier in this thread, many people have already expressed their feelings about adoption centres. It's not all smile and sunshines. What if the child unfortunately deelops some sort of mental disorder? Physical? It takes a special special kind of person to want to adopt them. Think about going to an animal shelter. Most people would skip the non-able bodied animals.

I'm afraid that it's not that easy if you yourself get raped and you're married. What would your husband think? Your family? Your decisions are bound to impact others.

I understand that you are being a caring person, but you will learn that it is not that simple. You are 15. You have lots to learn about the world. Keep an open mind, but do continue to be just as respectful as you are.

 

[Eternal Mametchi Fan]

Yes, I do understand how terrible rape may be. I personally have experienced sexual horror (it kept happening for a few MONTHS) but it wasn't exactly rape; I don't feel like saying what it was because it's too private/personal and such. It did make me very miserable and almost brought my depression back (I had depression for 1 - 2 years a while back), always feeling terrified and not trusting. Even now I sometimes become overwhelmed by the memories and break down into crying fits. There will always be a piece of my heart missing. And yes, someone very dear to me caused it, but I forgive them and I'm still best friends with them and I helped them change their ways. I did it a little harshly but I just want to be sure it never happens again...

I can only imagine how bad rape is since the thing that scarred my mind forever was similar but something less. I really wanna describe it to prove that I know what I'm talking about but I respect my friend and if he sees this post he'll probably be upset so yeah, I'm just gonna leave it at this ouo'

 

[SonicBlades]

I don't believe it's right in the case of the baby having a huge chance of dying. (Is there really such a thing as 100% certain?)

When my mom was pregnant with me she was told I would be born with my spine on the outside of my body and that I wouldn't live very long. The doctor recommended she have an abortion and even offered to pay for her bus tickets to go have it done. She couldn't bring herself to. Aside from a twisted muscle in my leg that eventually corrected itself, I was born perfectly fine. So, yeah, I agree that there's always the chance that the baby could have been born perfectly fine.

Personally, I don't think I could ever go through with an abortion. Still, I'm not entirely against others having them if the reason makes sense. If you're getting an abortion just because a baby will prevent you from partying with your friends, for example, that's a poor reason.

 

[Midorime]

Out of curiosity only, would it be considered abortion if the fetus, still as a clump of cells, grew like a cancer and became a tumor with only bits and pieces being human? Such as maybe an eye, no nose, a mouth, only one arm, etc?

Or what if in the case of a still born? It dies at say.... 6 months. Should the mother still carry it to term?