Abortion

[Moussette]

Your post is very touching Amaris. I wish you good luck on getting pregnant again !

I already gave my opinion about this topic, But then I realised something rather interesting : I started to ask myself why are we pro choice or pro life ?

I think maybe it has something to do with our childhood.

Stefen Bauwens, you believe in God, and i'm assuming you've been raised in a "religious family" (not trying to be rude here, it's just that it's hard to find the right words in english). So, as a believer, you don't understand how we could do such a crime.

On the other hand, I am pro choice. Believe it or not, but i've been raised in a very religious family too. But i've also been raised by an alcoholic mother who didn't want me. No affection, no hugs, the only time she touched me was when she beated me. So with that example of a mother, I don't want to be one myself. But if my mother was pro choice too...Maybe I wouldn't be here to tell you this .. ? This is getting deep !!! Ahem.

So to sum it up, i'd say that the choices we make and the opinions we have are consequences of our childhood, our religion, our relationship with our parents...

What do you think ?

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Yes, I definitely think education/childhood has to do with us. I was indeed raised in a religious family, but all my family really can do is steer me in the direction they think I should go. It is finally my decision to choose what I want to do. I'm quite certain that I have become a Christian thanks to my parents, or at least that's the reason I'm "so young" already a Christian. I have discovered my own proof that convinced me enough to stick to this belief.

Besides religion, I was born in a family with many(!) siblings, so I understand very well what a blessing children are. I am very happy with my family, and I can understand that if you were born without the knowledge of these things and were bad educated you could somehow perhaps think pro-choice is OK.

However, if you think about it independent from your education and childhood and other influences: Killing your own child while it's in you is a monstrous act. Are we animals?

 

[Yoggs]

Well I was brought up in a very religious family, I have many siblings, cousins, nieces and nephews. I don't believe abortion is a monstrous act, It is something that has to be done in certain situations. I don't think abortion should be the first decision that comes to the mother's mind when she finds out she is pregnant but if worst comes to worst and she has no other option then it has to be done, no matter if you think it is right or wrong.

 

[x.P O K E R F A C E]

As I have mentioned before in this topic, I am Pro-Choice - I believe people have a right to make a choice. The fact that I would never, personally choose to have an abortion does not mean I am Pro-Life.

I'm glad that TM said this. I think a lot of people out there should keep this in mind.

On an unrelated note, I just really want to ask this to the "pro-life" posters in this topic:

Here’s a test:

I’m holding a baby in one hand and a petri dish holding a fetus in the other.

I’m going to drop one. You chose which.

If you really truly believe a fetus is the same thing as a baby, it should be impossible for you to decide. You should have to flip a coin, that’s how impossible the decision should be.

Shot in the dark, you saved the baby.

Because you’re aware there’s a difference.

Now admit it.

(Not written by myself: https://timcastellini.tumblr.com/post/61539223203)

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Exactly the same question was asked a few pages back. I will try to answer more complete than I did that time.

If you have a fetus in a petri dish it's already dead.

If you mean you have some unfertilized eggs from the mother in the petri dish and you plan to fertilize it with some sperm, I would drop the eggs.

Why? Because I'm against outward fertilization because to require sperm some guy has to mast*b*te(where I am against).

Conclusion: I will always drop the petri dish because it's anyway total loss to me.

 

[joshnemo]

and I can understand that if you were born without the knowledge of these things and were bad educated you could somehow perhaps think pro-choice is OK

 

[x.P O K E R F A C E]

If you have a fetus in a petri dish it's already dead.

If you mean you have some unfertilized eggs from the mother in the petri dish and you plan to fertilize it with some sperm, I would drop the eggs.

Why? Because I'm against outward fertilization because to require sperm some guy has to mast*b*te(where I am against).

Already dead? No, you are manipulating the question to suit your own answer.

It is okay to be against outward fertilization, however, you are being impertinent in saying that "some guy has to masturbate". It isn't always "some guy" - there are many married couples who have trouble naturally conceiving who choose to turn to in-vitro fertilization.

Although I asked the question to present the difference between a fertilized and growing fetus (which is the correct definition of a fetus - it is developing, past embryonic stage and before birth. It is not "dead") and a born, living baby, saying you would drop the petri dish and its contents because it is "total loss" to you is somewhat hypocritical. What's in the dish has the potential to be a human, and whether it is fertilized in a petri dish, or fertilized in a uterus should be pretty much irrelevant to someone who is "pro-life"...

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

When something has a natural potential of becoming a human, I'm for it.

Why would there be a fetus in a petri dish anyway? How can it survive? So it is total loss. However, if it was still alive, I wouldn't drop any.

I am also against that married couples do this outward fertilization, because I believe mast*rbation to be sexually immoral.

 

[Yoggs]

Exactly the same question was asked a few pages back. I will try to answer more complete than I did that time.

If you have a fetus in a petri dish it's already dead.

If you mean you have some unfertilized eggs from the mother in the petri dish and you plan to fertilize it with some sperm, I would drop the eggs.

Why? Because I'm against outward fertilization because to require sperm some guy has to mast*b*te(where I am against).

Conclusion: I will always drop the petri dish because it's anyway total loss to me.

Let's tweak it a tiny bit then.

A fetus has been removed from a womb at 23+ weeks to grow and develop. So let's replace the fetus in the petri dish with that.

I'd easily drop the fetus as there isn't a 100% chance it will live even if it was saved.

 

[Moussette]

Well... it's basicaly the question : How much life is worth ? Is your life or your life more important than another person's life ?

Is the life of the mother more important than the life of the baby ? Is the life of a 3 weeks fetus less important than an 5 months fetus ?

When we think about abortion we ask ourselves those questions. It's immoral, it's "animal" as Stefen said, yes. But we do.

Animals by the way, let's talk about them. I love rats, i have domesticated rats at home, they are very cute and kind animals.

When the female give birth to her 10 or 12 babies. If one has some kind of malformation, the mother kills the baby (and eventually eats it). Because it's written in her genes : she has to terminate a weak baby, she has to eliminate the weaks in order to keep the best genetics for her colony.

I told you this story to show you something i find rather interesting : with abortion, we do not kill our babies because they are weak (acording to the statistcs, in France, 96% of abortions are NOT due to medical issues in the year of 2010 https://www.ined.fr/statistiques_ivg/2010/T19_2010.html ) but because we don't want them. Is it written in our genes? Is crime, murder or Stefen would say .. "sin" written in our blood ?

 

[Midorime]

Since you bring that up, an interesting thing to think about is the fact that we as humans also strive to protect all lives, especially those who have complications that should have died but don't. Problem with that is we are protecting all the bad genes and they're getting passed on generation to generation and it could be the reason why we have so many mental disorders, physical deformities, etc. From an evolution standpoint, to kill off the weak young seems reasonable, but we learned somewhere along the line that killing = wrong, so the weak end up living. Makes me wonder that if eventually, humans will end up so diseased and inbred that we will die off without this 'selective killing' that nature does. There's already way too many people on this Earth as well, and abortion is just one of many different methods to keep the population down. And if in the case the fetus is seem to have health issues and might not be viable, or worse, viable but forever a vegetable and basically a human that is brain dead and can't even feed themselves or anything, then I think abortion is a good option to have.

I guess I bring that up the most because at my work one woman has a son who is essentially brain dead and I believe maybe 8 now? All he does is lie down and stare off into space and is fed through a feeding tube. He can't talk, walk, or do anything but look around without any real comprehension of his surroundings and maybe can move a little bit, but not much--usually just a reaction to whatever stimulus he gets but it's not a truly conscious effort. While the woman has other children who look and act healthy, she isn't exactly the nicest and I have heard her call her daughter not-so-nice names. And the time I serviced her room, she joked for me to take her son and dump him in with the trash, too. I got offended because I mean it's her son, but looking at him and her and seeing this haggard shell of a person trying to care for a child who would never function ever, I can understand the frustration. I'm sure she got word her baby was not well but maybe for reasons I don't know, she decided to keep it, or maybe she couldn't even have the option to abort. But in her case I would say if there could have for sure been an option, or should have been, because here she has given birth to a human that, in all due reality, shouldn't even be able to live unless others intervene on a daily basis.

So I guess another question is: if the baby is born and is alive, but will never function as a human being and just lies there and needs machines in order to live, will never walk, will never communicate, and will never get better, is it really a person? Should it still be spared abortion if detected while still in the womb? What are the benefits, if any, of keeping a brain dead baby alive until who-knows-when?

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Well Moussette. I agree with what you said.

Not sure if you meant it, but I don't think we should abort our children because they are defect(say handicapped).

(Because we are no animals who do that kind of stuff out of programming).

Is sin written in out blood? According to the Bible, we're sinners from our youth. And out of experience I know that a person without God will cross certain lines just because he can. This doesn't mean it's good.

Midorime, the benefits of keeping someone alive is that it *may* be thinking inside, just you don't know about it. Keeping it alive, so you won't be responsible for its death. You never know, maybe a miracle will happen...

 

[Midorime]

idorime, the benefits of keeping someone alive is that it *may* be thinking inside, just you don't know about it. Keeping it alive, so you won't be responsible for its death. You never know, maybe a miracle will happen...

I have to somewhat disagree, even though there might be that 0.000000000000000000000001% chance. If I remember, i think the child had a mixture of cerebral palsy (the worst, debilitating kind), mixed with another disease/disorder. The child was pretty much effectively catatonic, yet awake (mostly). Scrunched up, too, and didn't seem aware of his surroundings at all. Born that way and with a prognosis of never changing and possibly just getting worse until death, hospices coming everyday to check vitals, change the IV solutions, check feeding and oxygen tubes, etc. I'm sorry but, if i found out my child was going to end up like that I would abort because to me it's not a person and they cannot live out a normal human life, they cannot go to school to learn, cannot have a family of their own, can't even speak or eat. That's just too much for something to suffer through for as long as machines and people keep them alive.

Also an interesting tidbit that I had forgotten: back in the way olden days, babies were never given names until certain ages due to the fact that infant deaths were extreme high, so parents refused to name their newborns until they were older and strong enough to survive as to not get attached to the child.

 

[Moussette]

Interesting and sad story Midorime. I have an aunt who was pregnant. She had an amniocentesis and they discovered that the child had a problem : trisomy 21. She had two options : keep the baby or abortion. She had the choice, but she kept her child.

I'm asking myself what would i do in that situation... I can't find the answer

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Well, the thing is. I would keep it, because you never know what the future might bring.

 

[Midorime]

The answer will vary person to person, but I guess the real question then becomes: can I afford to even help this diseased child? Obviously this woman lost everything just trying to keep her son alive day after day and is living in a motel. I still don't like what she told me, though. Should never joke around about 'throwing away' your children who have disorders. If it's something that's terminal or as bad as this child where it will absolutely not survive without constant attention, that's something that needs to be spoken about to medical professionals only.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

I don't quite understand you now. You say you don't like what she said, but you yourself would have aborted it...

Isn't that kinda hypocritical?

 

[Yoggs]

I don't quite understand you now. You say you don't like what she said, but you yourself would have aborted it...

Isn't that kinda hypocritical?

I think it was more that she was joking about 'throwing away' her already born child. It is a sick thought to be joking about her own son, even if it is her own way of coping.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

I think it was more that she was joking about 'throwing away' her already born child. It is a sick thought to be joking about her own son, even if it is her own way of coping.

Yes it's wrong, but so is aborting it...

 

[Yoggs]

Yes it's wrong, but so is aborting it...

Not everyone believes that though. That's the key thing to remember.