Abortion

[Amat Gotchi]

Is it wrong to advice a pregnant lady to not kill her child? Any option is better than murder.

If it just should be allowed because it will be done anyway the same counts for murder.

So that argument is invalid.

I understand your opinion. Really, I can see both sides of the spectrum.

The issue is, there are many other opinions on this thread and they need to be respected too.

I would not advise abortion, I wouldn't advise against it, but I would mention to a pregnant woman the many options for her. That's just plain honesty. The advice I would give her would be to research all of her choices so she doesn't make any choice too early.

I would wish her the best, that she would choose what she knew to be right, which is most likely keeping the child, but it's not my place to judge that; I've never been in that kind of situation.

Do not confuse "pro-choice" with "pro-abortion."

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

I though I posted here yesterday, but I can't see my post? I must have forgotten to press post, I guess.

I will say what I said again:

Women may have controll over their body unless it they by their controll cause harm to another human being then themselves.

 

[Ashley Montanae]

Oh look at me, jumping in all late!

My opinion?

I'm both pro-life and pro-choice. (Because pro-choice =/= pro-abortion).

Pro-life because (from a religious aspect), I believe God gave all life & all life is precious. From a more secular way of looking at it, I believe abortion is murder - a fetus (which is what a baby is typically called when it's unwanted) is still a life form. To take a life, in any capacity is murder, plain and simple. (Before you ask "so, you don't kill bugs?" I actually don't, thank you.)

However, I am pro-choice because (from a religious aspect), I believe God gave free will. We don't always make the "right" decisions in life, but, they're ours to make. From a worldly point of view, I'm pro-choice because I have absolutely no right to tell you what to do with your body or that which you're carrying. I can't stop you from doing it, so, I may as well accept your right to decide. ALSO, I'm an advocate of making your own decisions in life - we're not here for a long time, why let another human tell you what you can and can't do? As long as you're not legally infringing upon the rights of others (even though I believe killing a child is infringing upon their rights), no one has the right to tell you that you can't do whatever you want.

 

[dazzilitchigirl]

Oh look at me, jumping in all late!

My opinion?

I'm both pro-life and pro-choice. (Because pro-choice =/= pro-abortion).

Pro-life because (from a religious aspect), I believe God gave all life & all life is precious. From a more secular way of looking at it, I believe abortion is murder - a fetus (which is what a baby is typically called when it's unwanted) is still a life form. To take a life, in any capacity is murder, plain and simple. (Before you ask "so, you don't kill bugs?" I actually don't, thank you.)

However, I am pro-choice because (from a religious aspect), I believe God gave free will. We don't always make the "right" decisions in life, but, they're ours to make. From a worldly point of view, I'm pro-choice because I have absolutely no right to tell you what to do with your body or that which you're carrying. I can't stop you from doing it, so, I may as well accept your right to decide. ALSO, I'm an advocate of making your own decisions in life - we're not here for a long time, why let another human tell you what you can and can't do? As long as you're not legally infringing upon the rights of others (even though I believe killing a child is infringing upon their rights), no one has the right to tell you that you can't do whatever you want.

I'm not going to ask if you kill bugs, but do you eat meat? No, that isn't direct, but it's still giving money to the people who kill animals.

I really doubt that all of the pro-life people here are vegetarian. You're against abortion of unconscious foetuses, but not against killing of conscious, full-grown animals. I don't mean to be rude, but other than believing a human life is worth more than an animal one, what's your reason for this?

 

[Ashley Montanae]

I'm not going to ask if you kill bugs, but do you eat meat? No, that isn't direct, but it's still giving money to the people who kill animals.

Unfortunately, I give money to people who kill animals every-time I go in for my asthma medication and I give money (or.. I would) to the people who kill babies every-time I pay my taxes. I don't think the comparison (buying meat : killing human children) is fair - there's really no way to avoid anything in life.

(Because, well... I kinda need that medication to live, just like I need to/would need to pay those taxes to not end up in jail.)

I really doubt that all of the pro-life people here are vegetarian.

Vegan, speaking.

You're against abortion of unconscious foetuses, but not against killing of conscious, full-grown animals.

Unconscious? That's still being debated, but, I'll kindly leave the dead horse where it lies.

I don't mean to be rude, but other than believing a human life is worth more than an animal one, what's your reason for this?

While I place the life of a human over that of an animal (sentimentally speaking - simply because I'm human and thus have a better understanding of such a life), I don't support the taking of any lives. Period.

 

[dazzilitchigirl]

Unfortunately, I give money to people who kill animals every-time I go in for my asthma medication and I give money (or.. I would) to the people who kill babies every-time I pay my taxes. I don't think the comparison (buying meat : killing human children) is fair - there's really no way to avoid anything in life.

(Because, well... I kinda need that medication to live, just like I need to/would need to pay those taxes to not end up in jail.)

Vegan, speaking.

Unconscious? That's still being debated, but, I'll kindly leave the dead horse where it lies.

While I place the life of a human over that of an animal (sentimentally speaking - simply because I'm human and thus have a better understanding of such a life), I don't support the taking of any lives. Period.

Why is it not fair? Also, by buying medication and paying taxes, you're not directly supporting either meat or abortion. You're just doing what is necessary for our society and your health. By actually having an abortion, or eating meat, you are directly supporting those things.

Why do you place a life of a human over that of an animal? Not be be rude but if you eat meat, how can you claim that you don't support the taking of any lives? I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you're saying.

 

[Ashley Montanae]

Why do you place a life of a human over that of an animal?

As I said earlier -

...I place the life of a human over that of an animal (sentimentally speaking - simply because I'm human and thus have a better understanding of such a life)...

Not be be rude but if you eat meat, how can you claim that you don't support the taking of any lives?

But... I don't eat meat - I've vegan, remember? A vegan is someone who does not consume animal flesh or by-products (like honey, eggs, cheese, etc.).

 

[KERFUFFLE]

I suppose in a way my beliefs on this are actually partly formed and based upon how I feel about stem cell research. At the moment, a lot of it that is done with, I'm sorry to say, human embryos. I realise that many of you will disagree with that sort of thing and I perfectly understand, however for me I only have to think of my Dad, who has Parkinson's, and how much better he and others like him would be if stem cell research were to advance thanks to these kinds of tests taking place. Anyway, in this respect it is quite similar to abortion in that at the end of the tests, the life is terminated. I couldn't possibly say that stem cell research has a place but not abortion for this reason.

I also know that if I got pregnant I'd want the choice to be my own, without anybody else on my back telling me what they think is right or wrong, and that every woman should have that same right. You will never truly know how you will feel in that situation until you are there with something as life-changing as having a baby.

I also feel that people cannot expect to impose religious views into the law anymore as society becomes more multicultural and also increasingly non-religious. For example, I am an agnostic who sits on the line of several religions and spiritualism, because I feel that they all have something valuable to teach us, and I definitely wouldn't appreciate being told by somebody what I should do because of what they believe.

 

[Ashley Montanae]

People cannot expect to impose religious views into the law anymore as society becomes more multicultural and also increasingly non-religious.

> assuming you can't be a part of a religion and be pro-choice.

> assuming ideas about morality that lie contrary to popular opinion can't be formed without the influence of dogma.

 

[KERFUFFLE]

> assuming you can't be a part of a religion and be pro-choice.

> assuming ideas about morality that lie contrary to popular opinion can't be formed without the influence of dogma.

I apologise if I came across as though I was making a sweeping statement in that religion is the only reason why people make a decision on pro choice or pro life. That's not what I meant at all.

I was just addressing it as part of my statement; after all, it certainly is a deciding factor for a lot of people, and particularly in some countries of the world it is still religion that dictates the law on these things.

But I realise that there are many factors which can influence how a person feels about abortion, for example what I talked about in my post.

 

[Amat Gotchi]

However, I am pro-choice because (from a religious aspect), I believe God gave free will. We don't always make the "right" decisions in life, but, they're ours to make. From a worldly point of view, I'm pro-choice because I have absolutely no right to tell you what to do with your body or that which you're carrying. I can't stop you from doing it, so, I may as well accept your right to decide. ALSO, I'm an advocate of making your own decisions in life - we're not here for a long time, why let another human tell you what you can and can't do? As long as you're not legally infringing upon the rights of others (even though I believe killing a child is infringing upon their rights), no one has the right to tell you that you can't do whatever you want.

Agreed. Although I don't like abortion, it happens, and it can't be stopped from happening.

The necessity for it can be greatly decreased using abstinence and birth control, but you can't completely eradicate it. Even if it's illegal, it will still happen, but be very dangerous.

I don't necessarily think abortion is murder. However, I don't think it's right either, but women should be the one making that choice, not I who have never been pregnant.

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

What I don't understand is when people say that nobody has right to sell someone what he cannot do?

I cannot tell a murderer that he can't kill someone?

Seriously, if this is again that opinion-crap. If I see someone who is going to kill someone, I'll try to stop him(without trying to hurt him ofcourse).

I am convinced I have therefore the complete right to tell someone what to do.

Ofcourse, I cannot put a a gun against someone's head and force something to do, that I think is right. But murder is different.(and abortion). It is harming another human being. This gives me complete right to forbid them to do so. That one thing someone cannot forbid me to do.

I'm getting the impression, that in these times it's considered a grave sin or something if you tell HOW something is, instead of saying "I think so" or "In my opinion".

Seriously. Just accept that certain things are fact.

 

[Amat Gotchi]

What I don't understand is when people say that nobody has right to sell someone what he cannot do?

I cannot tell a murderer that he can't kill someone?

Seriously, if this is again that opinion-crap. If I see someone who is going to kill someone, I'll try to stop him(without trying to hurt him ofcourse).

I am convinced I have therefore the complete right to tell someone what to do.

Ofcourse, I cannot put a a gun against someone's head and force something to do, that I think is right. But murder is different.(and abortion). It is harming another human being. This gives me complete right to forbid them to do so. That one thing someone cannot forbid me to do.

I'm getting the impression, that in these times it's considered a grave sin or something if you tell HOW something is, instead of saying "I think so" or "In my opinion".

Seriously. Just accept that certain things are fact.

That is quite right.

However, not everyone agrees that abortion is murder. We can't know for sure whether, at that stage, the fetus has gained full consciousness or being, seeing that at that point it is debatably only a mass of cells.

I think, better safe than sorry! Try to avoid being faced with that decision.

I think that's the point some are trying to make here, that the women involved should be making that choice. We shouldn't, though we can encourage them to do what is right, if we believe we should.

 

[Kuribotchi]

Pro-Lifers, I'd really appreciate if you took the time to read this page from Womenscenter.com

https://www.womenscen...on_reasons.html

If you can't be bothered to read it all, please just take the time to read these important points:

• The violent acts of rape and incest cause women to become pregnant on a daily basis. Not many people, with the exception of a few conservative extremists, would argue that this causes tremendous psychological harm to the victim. Women are often in denial, too afraid to speak up or unaware they are pregnant. They may not know that the morning after pill (Emergency Contraception) is available to reduce the incidence of becoming pregnant by 65 to 85%.
  
• Abortion is not used as a form of contraception. Pregnancy can occur even with responsible contraceptive use. Only 8% of women who have abortions do not use any form of birth control.
  
• The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to equal protection rights. Women have to be able to maintain control of their bodies. It should not be that a foreign body (pregnancy) without personhood should have rights over the woman’s choice. Take away a woman’s reproductive choice you must ask just where the power of the government controlling women’s rights will end? If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, will they then try to force her to use contraception or undergo sterilization?
  
• Over 750,000 teenagers become pregnant every year. 80% of those end in abortion. Teenage mothers who keep their pregnancy face grim prospects for their future. They are likely to leave school, receive inadequate prenatal care, rely on public assistance to raise a child, develop health problems, or end up divorced.
  
• 88% or more of abortions take place in the first trimester (12 weeks or less from the last menstrual period), when a fetus cannot exist independently of the mother.
  

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Pro-Lifers, I'd really appreciate if you took the time to read this page from Womenscenter.com

https://www.womenscen...on_reasons.html

If you can't be bothered to read it all, please just take the time to read these important points:

• The violent acts of rape and incest cause women to become pregnant on a daily basis. Not many people, with the exception of a few conservative extremists, would argue that this causes tremendous psychological harm to the victim. Women are often in denial, too afraid to speak up or unaware they are pregnant. They may not know that the morning after pill (Emergency Contraception) is available to reduce the incidence of becoming pregnant by 65 to 85%.
  
• Abortion is not used as a form of contraception. Pregnancy can occur even with responsible contraceptive use. Only 8% of women who have abortions do not use any form of birth control.
  
• The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to equal protection rights. Women have to be able to maintain control of their bodies. It should not be that a foreign body (pregnancy) without personhood should have rights over the woman’s choice. Take away a woman’s reproductive choice you must ask just where the power of the government controlling women’s rights will end? If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, will they then try to force her to use contraception or undergo sterilization?
  
• Over 750,000 teenagers become pregnant every year. 80% of those end in abortion. Teenage mothers who keep their pregnancy face grim prospects for their future. They are likely to leave school, receive inadequate prenatal care, rely on public assistance to raise a child, develop health problems, or end up divorced.
  
• 88% or more of abortions take place in the first trimester (12 weeks or less from the last menstrual period), when a fetus cannot exist independently of the mother.
  

1. I agree and don't deny this.

2.I believe so. It proves though, that these people don't want a child in the first place. This shows that sex without the wanting of children is wrong since nature will try to find a way.

3.I disagree with this. I think the woman has right over her body, but not over someone's else, even if it's inside of her.

4. It is normal that it'll be hard to take care of your child on such a young age and still take good care of yourself. This can be blamed partially on bad education. But killing the child is not the solution. They should put the child for adoption in worst case.

5.Who cares? You're still preventing something that is becoming a child to not do so. I consider it murder.

Abortion is not the solution. And it are people like you that try to take the natural feeling of guilt and regret away, by saying "It was just a bunch of cells".

Why not choose for adoption, if you really don't want the child? Yes, I know that giving birth is very painful, but rather killing a child is a lot worse.

 

[dazzilitchigirl]

Pro-Lifers, I'd really appreciate if you took the time to read this page from Womenscenter.com

https://www.womenscen...on_reasons.html

If you can't be bothered to read it all, please just take the time to read these important points:

• The violent acts of rape and incest cause women to become pregnant on a daily basis. Not many people, with the exception of a few conservative extremists, would argue that this causes tremendous psychological harm to the victim. Women are often in denial, too afraid to speak up or unaware they are pregnant. They may not know that the morning after pill (Emergency Contraception) is available to reduce the incidence of becoming pregnant by 65 to 85%.
  
• Abortion is not used as a form of contraception. Pregnancy can occur even with responsible contraceptive use. Only 8% of women who have abortions do not use any form of birth control.
  
• The ability of a woman to have control of her body is critical to equal protection rights. Women have to be able to maintain control of their bodies. It should not be that a foreign body (pregnancy) without personhood should have rights over the woman’s choice. Take away a woman’s reproductive choice you must ask just where the power of the government controlling women’s rights will end? If the government can force a woman to continue a pregnancy, will they then try to force her to use contraception or undergo sterilization?
  
• Over 750,000 teenagers become pregnant every year. 80% of those end in abortion. Teenage mothers who keep their pregnancy face grim prospects for their future. They are likely to leave school, receive inadequate prenatal care, rely on public assistance to raise a child, develop health problems, or end up divorced.
  
• 88% or more of abortions take place in the first trimester (12 weeks or less from the last menstrual period), when a fetus cannot exist independently of the mother.
  

I completely agree with what Stefan Bauwens said, but I just want to add a few things.

2) What do you mean by responsible contraception use? If both people involved in sex use reliable, good-quality contraception, and time it to when the female has just finished her menstrual period, the chances of becoming pregnant are almost zero.

3) If somebody is repeatedly having sex underage or unprotected then asking for abortions, yes, they should be prevented from having sex to stop the killing of more unborn children. Also, I think it should be law to use contraception if you don't want a child. I don't know how much a condom costs, but it's probably not very much.

4) Teenagers shouldn't be getting pregnant, I think it should be illegal for anyone under 18 to have sex. It doesn't matter how close your relationship, how much contraception you use, how much you know about sex and reproduction, anything. Teenage relationships really don't need to involve sex.

 

[Tamagotchi Foreva]

4) Teenagers shouldn't be getting pregnant, I think it should be illegal for anyone under 18 to have sex. It doesn't matter how close your relationship, how much contraception you use, how much you know about sex and reproduction, anything. Teenage relationships really don't need to involve sex.

I find that to be an interesting idea but I find that it wouldn't work. Most people have sex to show their affection and love ( not that I find that a good way to show it)

but making it illegal wouldn't help much, people would still continue to do it. I agree it's horrible how many teenage girls are becoming pregnant now adays but

there are other ways to deal with this problem.

 

[Amat Gotchi]

Why is it not fair? Also, by buying medication and paying taxes, you're not directly supporting either meat or abortion. You're just doing what is necessary for our society and your health. By actually having an abortion, or eating meat, you are directly supporting those things.

Why do you place a life of a human over that of an animal? Not be be rude but if you eat meat, how can you claim that you don't support the taking of any lives? I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you're saying.

I completely agree with what Stefan Bauwens said, but I just want to add a few things.

2) What do you mean by responsible contraception use? If both people involved in sex use reliable, good-quality contraception, and time it to when the female has just finished her menstrual period, the chances of becoming pregnant are almost zero.

3) If somebody is repeatedly having sex underage or unprotected then asking for abortions, yes, they should be prevented from having sex to stop the killing of more unborn children. Also, I think it should be law to use contraception if you don't want a child. I don't know how much a condom costs, but it's probably not very much.

4) Teenagers shouldn't be getting pregnant, I think it should be illegal for anyone under 18 to have sex. It doesn't matter how close your relationship, how much contraception you use, how much you know about sex and reproduction, anything. Teenage relationships really don't need to involve sex.

It seems like you're changing your opinion here a little, doesn't it?

I do agree that people shouldn't be getting themselves into situations where they could become pregnant, but that's their choice, and theirs to decide. As lovely as it would be to not have these situations of teen pregnancy, it would not work to make sex illegal: you can't easily find if people are breaking that law (maybe a survey saying: "hello. Have you had sex this year? If you say yes, you will go to prison," given to teens in school, but seems dubious), and how would one punish for breaking that law (do you really feel like throwing teens who mess up and have sex into prison or juvenile hall?). I know perfectly good people who have engaged in, er, sexual acts when underage. Would you really punish them for doing something that isn't objectively wrong? I disagree with that act, but not everybody sees it as wrong. Plus, I know some people who have gotten married in their teens (I disagree with doing this too, but why prevent a married couple from having sex?).

Unfortunately, birth control really isn't 100% effective, even if used correctly. If more people used it correctly, there would be way fewer accidental pregnancies, but it still doesn't always work. Optimally, the chances of pregnancy with correct birth control are very low, though. You're quite right about that.

I guess I don't fully understand your opinion on the topic, that's all. But I definitely understand why you have so many different views on this.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need abortion. Lamentably, people have many flaws and conflicting ideas, leading to rash decision-making.

 

[purpurn]

1. I agree and don't deny this.

2.I believe so. It proves though, that these people don't want a child in the first place. This shows that sex without the wanting of children is wrong since nature will try to find a way.

3.I disagree with this. I think the woman has right over her body, but not over someone's else, even if it's inside of her.

4. It is normal that it'll be hard to take care of your child on such a young age and still take good care of yourself. This can be blamed partially on bad education. But killing the child is not the solution. They should put the child for adoption in worst case.

5.Who cares? You're still preventing something that is becoming a child to not do so. I consider it murder.

Abortion is not the solution. And it are people like you that try to take the natural feeling of guilt and regret away, by saying "It was just a bunch of cells".

Why not choose for adoption, if you really don't want the child? Yes, I know that giving birth is very painful, but rather killing a child is a lot worse.

My husband and I don't want children - mostly because I have a medical issue with my internal organs and I would probably have life threatening complications from getting pregnant and having a child. We love each other though and are devoted to one another and, yes like a married couple have sex because we love each other. I'm also on BC (not that any BC is 100% effective) and we are careful. I've never been pregnant. If I did become pregnant, I would most likely get an abortion. At an early stage it isn't anything more than cells that are deviding up to create an organ(placenta) that will become a growth that will take nutrients and use my blood (somewhat similar to a tumor). It has the potential to become a fetus, eventually a baby, and down the road a person, but early on it isn't much different than the unfertilized egg it started as. Also, again - the masturbation thing should be a big ol' no no in your book cause those cells have the potential of creating a person.

I completely agree with what Stefan Bauwens said, but I just want to add a few things.

2) What do you mean by responsible contraception use? If both people involved in sex use reliable, good-quality contraception, and time it to when the female has just finished her menstrual period, the chances of becoming pregnant are almost zero.

3) If somebody is repeatedly having sex underage or unprotected then asking for abortions, yes, they should be prevented from having sex to stop the killing of more unborn children. Also, I think it should be law to use contraception if you don't want a child. I don't know how much a condom costs, but it's probably not very much.

4) Teenagers shouldn't be getting pregnant, I think it should be illegal for anyone under 18 to have sex. It doesn't matter how close your relationship, how much contraception you use, how much you know about sex and reproduction, anything. Teenage relationships really don't need to involve sex.

I like how well you have been doing in this discussion, but I just wanted to point something out to you that I think is important for you know as a woman. A woman can get pregnant at anytime so long as she is past puberty and reproductive (and sexually active). Just because you have had your period recently doesn't mean that there is less chance of getting pregnant. There have been woman who get pregnant during, after, or before their menstrual cycle. There really isn't any "safe" or "safer" time to have sex.

Condoms don't cost much. Other forms of contraception may cost more, but laws can't force people do things like that and besides, would you like to see your teens getting hurt for just doing what comes naturally to people? We are all wired for being sexual beings at some point in our lives. People used to be killed or beaten for having premarital relationships, and occasionally women were called witches and burned at the stake for "seducing" men. It would be an invasion of privacy to even figure out that two individuals had sexual relations.

Also, I think that teenagers wouldn't be getting pregnant as often if they were getting proper education in school about contraceptives and how their bodies work sexually. The abstinence only teaching methods that were implemented in some of the schools in America actually hurt teens more because they just followed instinct instead of good teaching. ( Source )

-Purn

 

[Stefan Bauwens]

Purpurn, I can understand that for your case you would a condom. I am not against condoms, and I believe I have said earlier that in some occasions there may be a good reason for it.

However, if you would get pregnant, I don't think abortion would be the right thing, unless most likely both of you might die. :/