What Is Your Religion?

[-Ra-]

That is up for debate. He definitely claimed to be passing down what he had been taught, though it is more likely he borrowed heavily from ancient Pagan beliefs, coupled with his own flavor, and put together what later came to be known as Wicca. Yes, there are those absolutely adamant about the need for a coven initiation to be considered a "proper" Wiccan, however little things like these are exactly what caused so many different sects to branch off from Gardnerian Wicca. Raymond Buckland (the one who first brought Wicca to the United States) for instance believed in the validity of Solitary Wicca and self-initation, despite having been initiated by Gardner himself. With that, he formed his own branch called Seax Wicca. As for the definition of Paganism, I was going by the dictionary, which describes: "a follower of a polytheistic religion". Though you're right in that this doesn't exactly cover Atheist Pagans. However, as I've never encountered an Atheist Pagan, I can't comment on that w/o a thorough study. And of course not, I never meant anyone was a fool, if my words came off as such, my apologies. As for my faith, I have been a Wiccan for 13 years, so I know my fair share.

thanks for clearing some of those things up c: are you saying that gerald gardener didn't create wicca? because i know for a fact he did. i'm just going by what i've learnt through the pagan community. there was a big uproar about the whole initiation thing, i wasn't involved in the debate at the time but alot of other pagans i know were. a very reliable witch i know online named lizzy, pointed out that it is in fact an initiated religion, i'm not sure exactly what makes it so but i did see sourced info. it's really an opinion thing, if someone believes it isn't then you can't change their mind (this is just from what i've read, and what others have said) but as for paganism being an umberella term, i did mention that haha. although i didn't use those exact worse. your definition of paganism isn't correct to the dot either, you say that "Paganism is an all-encompassing term for any religion with belief in more than one god (polytheism)." i happen to know for a fact that there are athiest pagans and alot of them. i don't know what faith you follow or if you know many pagans but i've found that hearing other witches beliefs and information has given me a pretty huge idea on the whole subject.
just wanted to point out, i have studied witchcraft for a few years, paganism only for the last but i'm not some fool that is copying and pasting stuff from google, incase anyone got that idea ha. i'll try and find what was written about the initiation side of things and post it here but i can't make any promises, it was awhile ago

 

[nafaan]

then that would mean that you do have to be initiated into a gardnerian coven but if you wanted to be a seax wiccan, that is totally fine. as long as it fits in with the guielines of that religion. thanks for sharing this info, c: it's always great to hear other peoples opinions. i wasn't sure if you were or not but i had a feeling hence why i said "i don't know what faith you follow or if you know many pagans" again, sorry if i've come across as rude or anything. reading over what i write i can be pretty blunt. I'M ACTUALLY A REALLY LOVELY PERSON GUYS! d:

 

[booboo1]

hello everyone im just going to pop in here! uwu

i believe i have posted in here before but i've been raised catholic and i'm currently going to a catholic school. lately i've been a little iffy about my faith but i still consider myself to be a christian.

about what everyone else was saying, my best is actually pagan! it's really interesting to hear about her views, but we don't really get on the topic often. i love reading about this stuff and learning about other peoples beliefs. uwu one of my friends is a muslim and another an atheist, and it's so fascinating to hear about their views.

so yeah, i'm just popping in to say hi, i love reading this topic now that most of the debating has calmed down! c:

 

[nafaan]

this isn't directly from any friends of mine but it basically covers what is constantly being debated in the wiccan and pagan community.

here's some proof that what i was saying is legit, and not so much "incorrect"

Depending on which books you read, you've probably heard some mixed messages about the necessity of initiation in the Wiccan religion. There's one school of thought that says absolutely, you must be initiated or you're not truly Wiccan. Another group says that you can self-initiate, and still another group says that anyone can be Wiccan, and no formal ceremony is required. So which is it?

Well, like many other Wiccan and Pagan issues, it depends on who you ask. If you're interested in Gardnerian or Alexandrian Wicca, then absolutely, yes, you have to be initiated. These are both mystery traditions, and their secrets are oathbound, which means that the information you read in books is not included in here. The rules of these traditions require members to be initiated. To learn the secrets of either of these paths, you have to be initiated into a lineaged coven. There's no room for negotiation on this one.

Some covens require initiation of their members, but are not necessarily Alexandrian or Gardnerian. There are also dozens, perhaps even of hundreds, of traditions that consider themselves Wiccan and do not require initiation. For example, a number of books are available on these different paths, and their authors often encourage readers to self-dedicate or form their own coven. That's fine for those particular traditions -- just bear in mind that they're not the same as initiatory paths.

Often, particularly in online communities, there is spirited debate about whether someone who's not Alexandrian or Gardnerian can truly call themselves Wiccan at all, or whether they're NeoWiccan. This term is used to apply to a person or group who's not initiated into one of the two original traditions. Some people often take it as a derogatory term, but it's not -- it just means "new Wiccan", and is not meant as an insult if you happen to hear it.

Ultimately, this is an issue that will probably never be agreed upon by all the different factions of Wicca and Paganism. If you're initiated into a coven of some sort, then great! You have a group of people you can share experiences and ideas with. If you're not initiated, don't sweat it -- you can still network and learn and grow, just like everyone else.

Really, you need to decide what's important to you. What does initiation mean to YOU personally? For many people, it's a milestone that marks a certain amount of education and learning that has taken place. For others, it's something to brag about. Figure out what your priority is -- learning and growing, or having a collection of initiation certificates. Also, bear in mind that it's not unreasonable for this coven to have this rule in place. In many covens, all new people start as Neophytes, so you're not being singled out. This allows members to follow the coven's learning requirements, so that everyone is on the same page when it comes to learning. In some traditions, initiation is mandatory because the information shared within the group is secret and oathbound. Initiation is an oath of honor, stating that you will keep the secrets of the tradition to yourself.

You'll have to decide whether or not you can live with the coven's requirements. All other things being positive, it doesn't sound like a bad group to be part of -- after all, would you want to join a coven that just hands out initiations or degrees to anyone who thinks they're entitled to one?

source; https://paganwiccan.about.com/od/faq/f/Initiation_Req.htm

 

[-Ra-]

Most covens will definitely require an initiation of some kind. There is the traditional three degree system with covens in which the pupil moves up the ranks by "graduating" so-to-speak through study to eventually become an elder. As you've said, Gardnerian and Alexandrian covens are very strict on initiation rites. I suppose you could think of it in terms of like Sunday school and how you graduate from that after a long period of thorough study. However, even with Solitary Wicca, there is the traditional study period of a year and a day. This time period comes from an ancient Celtic mythology in which the goddess Cerridwen stirred her brew of wisdom in her cauldron for exactly a year and a day. Personally I was part of a local group (coven) for a while, but in the end decided it just wasn't for me. I felt more comfortable in solitude, and afterall if you're uncomfortable, how can you revere deity? But isn't it interesting and perhaps a little humorous to see that no matter what religion you may belong to, there are always disagreements even within that particular sect? Sort of like Christianity and the many different denominations' disagreement on the proper age of baptism or whether the communion is a symbolic or a literal act. I suppose when you come down to it, it is within human nature to find conflict on any topic.

 

[nafaan]

i think the reason it's such a touchy subject is because wiccans that go through everything properly, like their initiation and what not, get annoyed that other "wiccans" just decide to either start up a coven and call themselves gardnerian or alexandrian, or initiate whoever walks in waving a wand. i can see why this would be frustrating if i was in their position. i just don't understand why people get so butthurt over being told that they aren't wiccan because they haven't been initiated. no one's saying they can't practice withcraft, no one is saying they can't do certain things wiccans do, it just means that they aren't a wiccan, and why should that matter? it's just a whole labelling thing. if you can't be initiated into a founding coven, who cares? just call yourself a pagan, no initiation needed there. people can complain and disagree with it as much as they would like but it isn't going to change a thing, that's how it is and that's how it's always been.

i'm not directing this to you Ra, it's just generally speaking about people day in and day out c:

i like that little fact about cerridwen c: i've never heard of "solitary wicca" do you just mean someone that is a solitary practitioner? from what i know, ranks don't apply to solitary witches so neither would the year and a day rule. although, that is something that is incorporated into covens.

i'm solitary too, c: i also feel alot more comfortable being on my own. i've tried explaining it to friends before, but they think i'm nuts so now i'm kind of self concious i guess you could say, towards practicing infront of others

 

[-Ra-]

No one has the right to tell someone whether or not they are "legitimate" Wiccans or not. As I had said in my previous post, there is no central authority in the Wiccan religion, therefore there is no one true way. Whatever works for the individual is the right way. Therefore, whether initiated into a coven or not, anyone could absolutely become a Wiccan. You do not have to be a Gardnerian or Alexandrian to be considered a Wiccan. To be honest, those two branches aren't even the most populated ones due to such suffocatingly strict views. Telling someone they aren't a true Wiccan b/c they haven't been initiated by a coven is like Catholics calling Protestants heretics. It's utter nonsense. Most people who come seeking a different path come from sctrict dogmatic religions. To leave one to enter right back into another one often seems to be the wrong choice. Initiation is important to covens, but as I've said before, not all Wiccans view it as such. It has little to do with the belief system and the practices; which are of course more important. British Traditional Wiccans would disagree with this, but hey, there will always be those who disagree on just about anything. Gardnerians and Alexandrians don't hold the authority over the entire Wiccan population.

 

[nafaan]

i stand corrected, what you said about what works for the individual being the right way is a good point and i do agree with you on that. i was under the impression that wicca itself was created by gerald and that he was the one that made the rules, if those rules wearn't followed, it wasn't wicca.

alot of people think that wicca and witchcraft are the same thing, and that if you practice withcraft you are automatically wiccan, which is where my beef is. i don't understand how that is at all right when witchcraft itself dates back to before wicca, hence why i get defensive on the whole initiation part. when i first started learning about it all, i considered myself to be wiccan because i didn't know better, until someone told me that i wasn't due to the fact that i hadn't been initiated into a coven that follows wicca, not just performs witchcraft. i accepted that and moved on. the way i look at it is that gerald created wicca, therefore his coven is the only wiccan coven. (that doesn't mean there aren't non-wiccan covens)
it would be like me saying "i'm going to say i'm a christian but i'm going to reinvent the religion to suit myself because i'm gay and want to get married and have multiple husbands" i can invent my own religion, but i can't call it christianity because it already exists. yes, i can be a christian and be gay but that's only because i'm labelling myself as christian, the bible is against that so how can i be a 'pure' christian. do you see where i'm coming from? eg. so if the first wiccan coven says that you must be initiated, what gives someone else the right to come along and say "no you don't" just because they want to be wiccan, when it's meant to be sacred? religion is a very debatable topic and everyone is different i guess, there isn't really a right or wrong.

 

[-Ra-]

Isn't that how all the different denominations of Christianity and even Islam branched off? Whether they be Catholic or Sunni, Protestant or Shi'ite, they still think of themselves as Christian and Muslim don't they? Are Catholics more "Christian" than say Lutherans? Or are Sunnis more Muslim than Shi'ites? Not at all. The same exact notion applies to Wicca. Gardnerian tradition may have been the starting point, just like Catholicism was the starting point for Christianity, but large groups of people with differing views branched off and formed their own different versions. They may have differing opinions on different subjects, but the "core" beliefs basically remain the same. That is why all the different branches withstanding, people may call themselves Wicca, Christian, Muslim or whatever else w/o hesitation of "origin".

 

[nafaan]

you make a good point, but doesn't that mean that those people that branch out from wicca, should rename their version of the religion like the catholics, lutherans, etc did. instead of using the name for a religion that has it's own rules and guidelines? i think that's a little disrespectful to the original religion itself

 

[-Ra-]

I think you're a little too concerned with the title "Wicca". You need to realize that Gerald Gardner may have re-introduced what later came to be known as Wicca in the 1950s, but his teachings were what he had been passed down from the New Forst Clan, which he claimed was a surviving coven left over from the ancient Pagan times. That was a coven. Not the coven. As for why people who have branched off from Gardnerian Wicca haven't changed their name. They absolutely have. Seax, Dianic, Celtic, Caledonii, Strega, Hereditary, Teutonic, Green, Pictish... list goes on and on. They are all Wiccan traditions. All of them completely legitimate, recognized and worthy of all priviledges and respect shown to any other. The only "original" to be considered is Gardnerian tradition, and it isn't disrespectful to branch off an form a different one. Are Lutherans, Baptists or Methodists being disrespectful to Catholics when they call themselves Christians? Of course not. Same thing with this.

 

[oddsandendswithlove]

well interesting points in this discussion so far id say...I myself in fact am a Scotish Catholic woman...our family have come from the background of the celtic regions and another thing to be placed with the "Wiccan" discussion...even though I am Catholic, there has been parts of our past heritage and folklores etc being placed within the traditions of the wiccan ways...I myself have not practiced any of these but there is something my grandmother had told me when I was growing up that I believe so closely to my heart today she had said "WITH EVERY RELIGION AND BELIEF THERE IS THE RIGHT AND THE WRONG,WE AS PEOPLE CANNOT JUDGE EACH OTHER SOLEY ON THESE NAMES.WE HAVE TO LOOK INSIDE THE TRUE CHARACTER OF THE PERSON WE MAY WANT TO JUDGE AND KNOW,TRULY THAT THERE IS GREATNESS IN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US"...so that's what I believe.i have my god close to my heart and soul and if I truly am a catholic woman then I except everyone as they are completely equal to me...

 

[Rosaria]

I'm Atheist. I find it hard to believe in something that we have no proof of. But that's just my opinion.

 

[SugaryGoesRAWR]

Oh. I'm supposed to be Catholic. I am in a purely Catholic family. I have to go to church every Sunday and sometimes Saturday, even sometimes Thursday.​

I'm Agnostic, but I don't want to tell my parents.​

That's similar to me - I was raised as a Catholic, and I still keep those beliefs but my Agnostic beliefs are there too!

 

[GUCCI-MANE]

That's similar to me - I was raised as a Catholic, and I still keep those beliefs but my Agnostic beliefs are there too!

Same here too, I was raised in a very strong Christian household, but last year I became Agnostic and eventually Atheist.

I've come back to Christianity so maybe I never was Atheist. I don't know.

 

[Nathalietchi]

I'm also Atheist. Although I wish I could believe that everything in life, especially suffering, is for a reason. Now life just seems so cruel sometimes.

 

[SugaryGoesRAWR]

Adding onto my post about my religion being Catholic, I'm also not allowed to practice it - the reason being my great-grandparents;

My great-grandmother was a Catholic, like my Mother and Grandmother, right? Well her husband, or my great-grandfather, was an Anglican, and I'm pretty sure people of those two beliefs disliked eachother. Therefore, no Catholics or Anglicans in my family practice in respect.

 

[Eternal Mametchi Fan]

There is a reason for everything, but that does not mean I believe it God. I do, however, believe in StarClan.

 

[Happily Candied]

I was raised to be Roman Catholic and my parents sent me to both a Catholic grade school and high school. I spent a good chunk of my life under the instruction of the Church by going to mass at least two times a week, attending prayer services and having religion class every day. Years and years of learning the Church's history, its beliefs and its traditions...

Once I became and adult and had the opportunity (and freedom) to gain more personal experiences that defined who I was, I very happily and willingly became agnostic (the closest term/label that defines my beliefs). To put it simply, I don't lay claim to believing in one god or saying that there is no god (or gods), but I keep an open mind when it comes to every type of belief system. There is no proof on either end of the religion spectrum, therefore I think anything and everything could be possible.

My parents are very aware of my beliefs, even if they don't understand or agree with them. My mom is understanding and my dad still can't grasp what I've told him. Even so, I'm extremely happy with where I am in life thanks to my change in beliefs. I feel free. I feel like myself.

 

[TheRiceball]

I'm a Wiccan ^_^